Hell... according to the Orthodox
Check out this quote from The Orthodox Church, By Timothy Ware.
266: “Since free will exists, hell exists; for hell is nothing other than the rejection of God.” God is love, but love is not love if it is forced, therefore humans are able to reject the love of God. “Hell is not so much a place where God imprisons man, as a place where man, by misusing his free will, chooses to imprison himself. And even in hell, the wicked are not deprived of the love of God, but by their own choice they experience as suffering what the saints experience as joy. ‘The love of God will be an intolerable torment for those who have not acquired it within themselves’.”
This is interesting. What do you think?
Shalom~Thomas
posted by Thomas (Murphy) Bridges at 1:18 PM
22 Comments:
Thomas,
Could it mean that we are still loved by God, which I think it could... aslo does it mean that we still... have an oppurtunity to be in his grace? Still pondering the whole realm of hell and what it means...
Blessings,
Ryland
Wow, I find that interesting as well, and a bit of a refreshing perspective at least (speaking as someone who also wrestles with the nature of hell, what it is, what it means, particulary in the context of God's love...)
Two questions on the quote...who are the wicked? And what constitutes rejection of God?
Also echoing Ryland's question: is it possible that we would still have an opportunity to be in his grace?...would it be our continual choice to remain there, or the never-ending result of choices previously made?
Sorry, these are things I think about, and I was excited to run across a blog investigating these questions...have wondered sometimes if I was the only one...thanks!
Well, the Orthodox they believe so strongly in the unity of the Church (and in a sense of humanity as a whole) that they believe that it is not over for anyone until it is over for everyone. Some Orthodox theologians liken this to the Roman Catholic view of purgatory; others do not (they are big on mystery). Orthodox pray for the dead, and trust that it has some effect on thier final outcome.
Will there be repentance after the "judgement'? They do not specify this. They do not, however, emphasize the judical aspect of the work of Christ as much as the west does. They think that not all have to be saved (for this would do away with free will), but they allow that all might be saved someday.
Origen (a major figure for the East) taught that all creatures would eventually be saved - even Satan and the demons! Gregory of Nyssa (also huge for the East) also believed that all creatures would someday be wooed by the beauty of God and God's love.
I am interested in more thoughts from you people out there... ~Thomas
Hi, I'm Paul. A friend of Jake Edwards and a former student at IWU. If you want to see how this idea of Hell plays out I would highly suggest you read the novel The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis. This was primarily his view coming out of an age when the English were trying to find unity between Anglican and Orthodox. Just a suggestion for some more learning on this issue.
a few days ago, in liberation theologies, we watched the film "romero" and, in light of that film and situation, i think i highly agree with ware. that fire picture brings some pretty terrible stereotypes to my mind and that's too bad. i think that flames image might be helpful as an analogy but it's been so skewed when used as a deterrent for certain ways of life or an encouragement for saying that all-popular prayer (but i think i'm blowing hot air in thomas' face with these words... sorry i've got nothing new). thomas, have you been influenced by orthodox thought for a while? if so, it's funny that we've been on similar "mind/life-tracks" (moltmann, liberation, orthodox, etc...)
be peace, brother
curtis
Curtis,
Yes. I have been very influenced by Orthodox for several years now. In fact, I have seriously considered and praed about joining the Orthodox Church. This winter i finally reached a decision, after much reading and visiting some of their churches. Maybe that should be my next post??? Happy Easter~Thomas
thom... yeah, post about it. i'd like to know.
I read a Truesdale essay (from Jesse) on hell a while back and it's stuck with me ever since. It proposed two understadings of hell (if I remember correctly). It seemed to run along the lines that if hell exists then it has to exist because God wills it to exist; moreover, if redemptive grace is an inseperable attribute of God(which I hold it to be because it is part of love) then the it is necessary for this redemptive grace to be present in hell. Therefore, any location, metaphysical or not, in existence is not closed off from the possibility of redemption.
The other alternative Truesdale gave was that hell is nonexistence. By which he meant one explicitly chooses to deny God, thereby seperating himself from the Sustainer and commiting suicide in an existential sense. But this would also indicate that hell is not a place that exists either.
Moving away from Truesdale, if we want to get Orothodox how are we to interpret the Apostle's Creed when it says Christ decended into hell? There are those interpret this as the redemptive love of Christ being made availible to those in a post-death state (see Keen's Azusa Last Word's sermon).
My personal opinion of eternal damnation requires the violent use explatives, but I'm not sure of people on this site are comfortable with using such words to there full potential, so I'll leave it to everyone's imagination.
(By the way everyone, I'm back form Oxford.)
---Timothy
I've forgotten my user name and password at the moment.
oh... what the hell?
and tim, scream those explatives.
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Good stuff Tim. We might note
a. "Hades" is the word in the apostles creed, which is the abode of the dead. This COULD just mean Jesus was DEAD, or,
b. we can remember that this clause was ADDED to the creed (it was not original) or,
c. because Christ went to Hades, even the realm of the dead is filled with the ressurecting, life givinglove of God which raised Jesus from hell.
I opt more toward c., because I find a lot in the Christus Victor model of atonement. Also, as for spatiality, remember that "heaven" is not a location like most people think of it. All the ehavens and the earth will be recreated. The heavenly city comes down; we do not go up. We will be "in heaven", in this newly recreated earth.
Peace~t
Hey, time do you still have that Truesdale article on hell... if not could you point it to the right direction? Thanks!! This is such an important topic!
-Ryland
Forgive me in advance, this is going to a long post...I'm really eating up this discussion, and the perspectives and ideas that have been put down here are ones that make so much sense to me, and that I find myself identifying strongly with. I wrestle a lot though, with how to honestly integrate into my faith. I wonder if anyone here could offer any help or insight on how I can somehow reconcile these ideas or perceptions of hell with what I find in Scripture. I have such a hard time coming to terms with the description/understanding of hell, salvation, punishment, wrath, and eternity the way I've always been taught. It doesn't make sense to me for the same reasons I see stated here, and elsewhere. It makes it difficult for me to live with hope that the God I have a relationship with is a God of love, a love that I can trust and be safe in. Yet when I look at Scripture I often end up confused...Take 2 Thess 1:8-10, for instance. I often feel like I'm stuck between believing in a God I'm pretty much terrified of, who set up creation and eternity in a way that fills me with despair rather than hope...or to not believe/trust in Scripture or Christianity at all...or to pick and choose what parts I believe and what I don't (then how the heck would I know where I'm right or wrong)...or to somehow find a way of reading or understanding Scripture that allows me to believe in its truth and yet find a different message than the one I've grown up with that makes so little sense to me...and how do I do that? What's the answer? How do I find it?
I don't struggle so much with the idea of punishment, discipline...separation from God...the need for atonement...etc. What I DO struggle with most is the 'torment' part and the 'eternal' part. Why torment? What kind of torment? Who is tormenting? One thought is that perhaps torment is what one experiences when he finds himself in the state of separation, willful or otherwise, from God, the source of life and love. Then, as I struggle with the 'eternal' part - I think about the story of Nineveh, and how Jonah is sent to proclaim their downfall. As far as I can see, it's not even really so much a call of repentance, as in 'Repent or else I'll do this to you', instead it's stated something like '40 more days and you're all goners!' The king says 'Who knows? Perhaps if we turn from our ways, humble ourselves, and call out to him, he'll have compassion on us and spare us.' And so He did. The way I've gotten by, when I wrestle with the issue of hell, is holding to the hope that while Scripture talks about eternal punishment (from what I can see, anyway), perhaps God's compassionate nature could act in the same way as it did with Nineveh. Or like he showed mercy to Manasseh and restored him after he had done so much evil, didn't listen to the warnings, and was in the midst of his punishment and cried out and humbled himself.
I, too, have an extremely difficult time imagining how a God who is called love, and says he doesn't want anyone to perish, would deny his created, those he loves so much, the option of repenting...simply because they missed the deadline, they didn't 'get it' in time...they would have only that small sliver of time called life, when everything can be so cloudy and so many 'answers' are thrown at you...to make a decision on which their eternity hinges. 'Sorry, game over, you should have somehow made this decision before you died...now that you're dead, and it becomes clear what the truth is, and what the way to me is, you can't actually choose it anymore.' That's what it feels like, anyway, to me in my frustration. I could look at it and think 'Well, God doesn't want them to suffer eternally in hell, but he set up the universe that way, they made their choice, and now his hands are tied forever'. That doesn’t make sense to me either.
One more question for Timothy. I have wondered sometimes what was the significance of the actual death of Jesus (because I've grown up being taught it basically signifies everything in the story of salvation). Timothy, you mentioned something along the lines that you didn't think Christ's death had anything to do with the availability of God's redemptive grace (unless I completely misunderstood you)...rather it changed humankind's view of that grace. I feel like I see different instances in which Jesus spoke of his upcoming death and suffering, and the necessity of it, and I look at what he told his disciples at the last supper: "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." My first thought would be that it seems like Christ's death WAS necessary for the forgiveness of sins...for the availability of that redemptive grace...however that works...could you tell me what you would make of that...how you see it?
Again, I am so sorry this is so long! You're probably going to kick me out of your discussion here! But...I would so appreciate any responses, insights, thoughts...or if anyone could point me to some good resources that would allow me to dig and find some answers myself. Anything would be appreciated!
Becky - thanks for the discussion. Lets keep it going with Tim's next post. We wont kick you out :-)
Wow! Thi is has been a great discussion! Thanks for many repsonses and insights. I look forward to the next post.
-Ryland
RESPONSE and a CRAIG KEEN QUOTE
Well, I doubt anyone will read this simply because the new post is already up...but oh well.
The quote you mentioned Thomas has been affirmed by C.S. Lewis in The Great Divorce where he writes that throughout life and in the end God tells us "Thy will be done" hoping our response is "THY will be done."
Also, I figured this would be a good time to post a conversation I had with Craig. Perhaps I'll put it on the the main page. I asked Craig about Jesus in Hell. He wrote,
It seems to me that Jesus is precisely his history--not some thing with a history. What he does and what is done to him, how he act and how he is acted upon--all that--is what he "is." His life ends with his forsaken death on the cross. In that event he "goes to hell," is swallowed by the darkness, cold, and Godlessness of sin, death, and hell. When he is raised from the dead, his history is neither erased or added to by additional moments of time. Rather the history that ends when he breathes his last on the cross is what is raised. That means that his damnation is glorified by the glory of God, by the Spirit filled coming of God's Reign. And so, though his death and damnation are swallowed up in God's holy work of resurrection, they are not simply replaced with something else. That means that whatever "hell" means, it now is defined by the salvation of God. To go to hell now means that one goes to the place that has been filled by God's saving glory. In that sense Jesus is in hell--but he is there as grace and hope and love and a future.
So I asked if that means we, the Church, are in Hell as the body of Christ.
He responded:
Yes, insofar as the church is faithful to its Lord it lives its life in hell--redemptively.
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